What Are We Afraid Of?
I went to a Calvary Chapel yesterday for a concert and message, it was a great evening the music was really good and the Gospel was presented which was great. However during the presentation of the Gospel something was said that I have been hearing more and more
a very general condemnation of the “Emerging Church” as unbiblical and very, very, dangerous. We in Calvary Chapel talk about the Emerging Church as if it is a denomination with a clearly defined statement of faith, the problem is as far as I know there is not one. Now I am not saying that everything said by someone considered Emerging is biblically sound, in fact I would go so far as to say that I am sure there are a few heretics involved
But what bothers me is the broad brushing and the generalizations that are so flippantly thrown around. Why cant we examine people on an individual basis?….What are we so afraid of?….that maybe people will like these emerging churches better than they like ours?……that to me sounds an awful lot like what the evangelical community did when Calvary Chapel was reaching out to hippies!
Please if you know tell me what is the Emerging Church? and I want qoutes not memorized party lines…… how do we decide who is emerging?……and is it bad?……shouldnt every church be emerging? and seeker sensitive?……just because people are doing things that are weird to us does that mean that they are non biblical and dangerous?…and btw I think painting or sculpting on stage during worship is weird! I just dont think its my duty to warn people against it.
Recently i have heard that Donald Miller and Phil Wickham are Emergent…….now concerning Donald Miller his book “Searching for God knows what” is one of the best books i have read in quite a while. He speaks about the relationship Jesus wants to have with us in wonderful ways that stir my heart, so if that book is Emerging then so am I……btw it has been a very long time since a book by a Calvary author has had any effect on me whatsoever?……now on to Phil I happen to know Phil personally and he is as annointed and Christlike as anyone I have ever had the pleasure to be around!
Now in closing i want to address the question posed in the title What are we afraid of?……I absolutely believe it is losing people, we have always been taught that if we teach the Word people will be healthy and reproduce, but all of a sudden if any church comes along that is attracting more people than we are……we attack!……so whats the answer?…..here it is we need to have something “real” to offer the people who come through our doors namely Jesus not talks about Jesus but Jesus in reality.
and I think sadly in many places we (calvary guys) have become so focused on the Ministry specifically the teaching that we have lost touch with the Lord…..we have sadly become the pharisees whom Jesus said search the scriptures and yet miss Him.
Please know that these things are submitted humbly and with responses desired as always thanks for reading…Jeff
jeff…you and I have had many conversations about this. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Clearly there are dangerous aspects of some guys that are part of the “emerging church” (whatever that is) but there are also some really good things going on in these churches that we can glean from.
Most CC guys don’t realize that there several streams within the “EC” some of these streams are super liberal and should be avoided…others however are very solid and are just using different methods to share the same message.
“what are we afraid of?” a very good question…it’s human nature to be afraid of the unknown or something different.
It’s totally ironic because CC was the original emerging church and as you said many of PC contemporaries were totally freaked out.
Now they’re doing the same thing…it’s one thing to poopoo false doctrine but it’s quite another to be against something that you are ignorant about.
I too really like Donald Miller.
Ryan, it absolutely scares me to hear calvary people just repeating things they have heard their pastor say (or some other CC Pastor)…without having any clue what they are even talking about…..I was talking to a young guy recently who was telling me who he heard was Emergent…and I asked him what is Emergent?…and he said…..I dont know!….and that my friend IS the problem
Hey Jeff,
If you discover what we are afraid of, you will finally be qualified to come up to Napa to teach.
Seriously, if the concert you went to had an evangelical purpose to it, why even bring up the subject of the Emerging Church to people who don’t even know Jesus?
Pastors are warning unbelievers about what church to stay away from, and they don’t even know Jesus yet. That sounds pretty backwards to me, and a waste of a good opportunity to preach Christ.
I like the old sarcastic saying that well describes many churches and their “invitation” to come to Christ: “Come as you are, but then be like us”.
I suggest that if you witness that kind of foolishness again, you simply storm the stage and take over the event.
Bill, that is a great point! you know I actually think it was an evagelistic service given to a room full of christians? which is also something Iwonder about? if you are hoping for evangelism but show up and the entire audience is singing the worship songs maybe a change would be in order?…..and as far as storming the stage you obviously no nothing about Southern California Church Security…ask Ryan
Come on Jeff….it’s worth a try…
Bill…that is the point exactly! Why in the world are we bringing up “evil churches” during an evangelistic message?
A young guy at our church grew up at a CC in So-Cal. He went home for Christmas…while at home he was reading Blue Like Jazz, which I had recommended to him. Some of the youth leadership at his home church saw him reading BLJ and they freaked out.
“Why are reading that book…it is totally emerging”
really…have you read it?
what a joke.
How much better to let youth stretch out with their methodology (if they are so inclined), while they have still have a youth pastor that they can talk to about re. they are reading.
Teach Jesus, and stop the mind control.
Guide them into their own Bible based conclusions.
O.K., now I’m mad…
That does it! I’m growing dreadlocks. Jeff, you with me?
One thing to add, we can help stretch folks if we do it in love.
Leaders, whether of youth or adults, simply need to be talked with (not at), and we can help them move away from sanctifying a church cultural style while condemning different one.
Kind people have helped us grow and be stretched.
Jesus did that with His guys…
Peter got stretched a bit by God in Acts 10.
Wow great comments guys! Bill I totally agree about helping people come to their own Bible based conclusions. I also love the teach Jesus part. Also I got my papers for the Pastors conference today and there are 2 Emergent workshops? I am kind of looking forward to attending them and seeing what is said?
oh and I think Ryan is just mad that he recomended Blue like Jazz and the CC guys were down on it . He has a real big desire to fit in
Bill…where’s your faith? You didn’t ask me if I was into the idea of growing dreads. Are you intimating something? Are you exluding me from the big boy hair club?
Jeff…I gave up a long time ago trying to fit in. That’s why I hang out with you, Jay, and Bill.
Sorry Ryan,
I didn’t want to put in you in “no win” situation.
I am not looking forward to the Emergent Workshops. I wish they weren’t even doing that.
I’ll be in the jacuzzi…
now I have a conundrum…..to hear the Emergent workshops or take my camera to the Jacuzzi and get some blackmail shots of Bill???…what shall I choose? I am hard pressed between the two?
HI Jeff,
I just wanted to share my insite on “Emerging Churches” and “Seeker friendly” Churches. Now I have not personally attended a church “Emergent” but I have heard from many pastors and others that have , and what I have heard is that the Emergent Churches are taking all religions and joining them together, and basically stating that everyone’s God is the same God. So the muslim have the same God, and the Christians have the same God, and they join and pray together to “God”.
“Seeker Friendky” I can relate to because I ahve attended a few of these, and it is really happening and its kind of sad. The Pastors at these churches dont even encourage people to bring their Bibles, the Pastor doesnt even read out of the Bible. The Pastor does everything they can to make the congregation “Comfortable”. I was attending a church here in OC for awhile before I got married. It was fun! I never felt convicted, I never felt I should read the Bible. It Seemed the Pastor never had anything to tell us about how important it was to have a close relationship with the Lord, and of course would just kinda skip over those chapters and verses that talk about what happens to those who reject God. A few months into going to that particular church it was announced to the congregation that the pastor had an affair, when his wife at the time was 8months pregnant. He was then asked to step down, but from then on, it was just the same thing. Peopple felt great going there, living in sin was OK. There are many churches today that are this way. Now I have been going to Calvary for years, and I think its great. Genesis through Revelation. There are some other great “bible teaching” churches out there. We just need to be careful and warn people especially christians who are going through a time of testing and “seeking” and they dont fall into that path of Seeker friendly, because that is exactly what Satan wants us to do.
Anyways I hope I wrote this all the right way as I was thinking it. Its just from my experience and insight. I have alot of stories and backgrounds on this topic but My daughter just woke up from her nap now so I better go. We are praying for you and Karen!
Forget the camera tom-foolery at the jacuzzi, because I am not emerging.
Christina, i appreciate your experience and agree that the things you experienced were wrong, however I think these things need to be evaluated on an individual basis and not blanketly condemned……it Bothers me when we Calvary people in our smugness condemn entire groups of people over the sins of a few…..I am sure you know that there are many adultery stories like the one you described inside Calvary Chapel. also I disagree with the notion that the Emerging church is something that can be defined by the quotes of a few…..I believe the things you heard about accepting of all Religions are out there but I know for sure that this veiw is not held by all who we “label” Emergent…..thanks for reading and sharing….Jeff
ps Bill that was funny
jeff and bill are going to be playing in the jacuzzi…now this could be a headline.
I’m new to reading this blog, but I thought your post and questions posed were interesting. I go to an evangelical/charismatic church, and we haven’t heard a whole lot about the emerging church from the leaders there, just that it is a “postmodern” approach to christianity, sort of…kind of an “everything is relative” approach. I realized I hadn’t read much from the “emerging church” world except Don Miller’s Through Painted Deserts (which I loved), so I picked up a Brian McLaren book available at my library–the Secret Message of Jesus. I started into it wondering if I’d run into heresy of some sort, but it was actually very encouraging in the fact that it made me look at the parables of Jesus and the whole kingdom of God in a way that I’d never even thought of before. It was really good, and I didnt’ find anything unBiblical in the book. Being a charismatic, I was a little disappointed in how he downplayed the Holy Spirit, power of God stuff, but I wrote a post about how much I really enjoyed it on my blog.
It seems a lot of emerging church literature is about “missional living” which is awesome! It’s the idea that we Christians are missionaries wherever we are, meant to bring the kingdom of God to whatever place we’re in right now. At least, this is how I see it. Check out http://www.wreckedfortheordinary.com for cool stories and articles and poems.
I also like how the emerging church is into bringing back culture and art into the church. Why should our God-given creativity go to waste and why should the world gain recognition for creating beauty? Why not the children of God?
I’m sure there’s a lot of unScriptural teachings out there–they’re in most every stream of church. Ya know, I took a class on the History of Revival, and it talked about how those involved in one major move of God will most always criticize the next move of God because it’s different. Maybe the Emerging church is part of the next major move of the Holy Spirit within the church. Who knows what God’s plans are?
Jessie, thanks for reading!…I appreciate your veiwpoint on this subject, and now I am kind of wanting to read Mclaren’s book….what you said about one move of God criticizing the next move is really true.
Hi Jeff,
This is christina again. I just wanted to ask what the latest is on Karen’s Situation? We have a whole team praying for her and you here at our Discipleship Evangelism group here at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. People have asked me what in detail to pray for and I wanted to ask you guys ?
Thanks
God Bless,
christina
Wikipedia has some thoughts on what an Emerging Church is.
This message by Mark Driscoll will help for ya’ll who are still mowing these things over in your head: http://www.marshillchurch.org/sermonseries/religionsaves/week_08.aspx
By the way, is this the blog for Calvary Chapel Aboos’s House? Orrr no?
Hey Jeff. Just read through the entire Wikipedia site on the Emerging Church. I am currently proofing a book on biblical infallibility for CCCM (the book was originally writeen in the 70s), and a section on the ECM has been added as an appendix. I haven’t done much studying on the issue (being a stay-at-home mom these days), but what I have read scares me. Here are the criticisms and I think they are valid (sorry it’s so long):
Denial of certitude of faith
Many evangelical Christian scholars criticize the movement for maintaining that certainty in faith is not achievable,[27] and for rejecting the view of historical orthodoxy regarding the perspicuity of Scripture. Brian McLaren does not know why Jesus died on the cross, and he maintains that even Jesus did not know the reason for this sacrifice.[28] The movement’s rejection of epistemological foundationalism and reliabilism, as well as bounded-set theology (borders for orthodoxy) has caused similar concerns within Evangelicalism.[29] Evangelical Christians complain that when these factors are combined with the postmodern tendency to deconstruct traditional terms and biblical texts, and the emphasis on deriving “truth” through group consensus dialectic and transformational thinking,[30] the result is the emerging church movement’s toleration of doctrinal and moral positions that most evangelical Christians consider non-negotiable.
Unorthodox theology
While many evangelical Christians have been open to some of the criticisms that the emerging church movement has offered, most seem to have rejected the emerging church movement’s views of several key theological themes within their soteriology and eschatology as well as the openness of some in the emerging church movement to alternative lifestyles. Many of these critics seem especially concerned about unorthodox views in the now emerging church movement on doctrines such as blood atonement, salvation by faith, hell, and the sovereignty of God.[34]
Propositionless evangelism
Conservative evangelical Christians contest their understanding of one of the emergent perspectives on evangelism. Those critics believe that some in the emerging church’s view of God’s kingdom is too narrowly limited to improving social conditions while ignoring eternal matters[35]. One finds the distinction between the evangelical and emergent approaches to evangelism in the emergent rejection of propositional evangelism[36] which Evangelical Christians insist complements friendship and good works in order to impact both the mind and heart of others. What conservative Evangelicals generally see as Biblical descriptions of propositional evangelism by Luke and its teaching by Paul in the New Testament[37] causes them to believe this is a timeless practice which is needed for hearers to understand the gospel and believe it.
Syncretistic spirituality
Some evangelical Christians express concern that postmodern spirituality is more syncretistic than scriptural.[38] These Christians have questioned a variety of mystical techniques found in the emerging church movement such as contemplative prayer (although this term is used with various meanings) and labyrinths; and they express concern regarding the premodern (as exhibited in the medieval mystics) and Eastern approach to “spirituality” found in the movement.
Criticisms persist despite diversity in the movement
Several critiques of this movement have been written recently by leading Evangelical scholars such as D. A. Carson and Millard Erickson. In September of 2006 an open conversation was held in Perth between D. A. Carson and two Australian emerging church leaders, Andrew Hamilton and Geoff Westlake.[39] This meeting restated the proponents and critics positions. Critics have long recognized the great diversity within the movement which makes it difficult to critique with too broad of a brush. This conversation served to highlight that issue, as Carson affirmed that the ‘brand’ of emerging church he was observing in Australia seemed different from that which he critiqued in his book. This concession by one critic concerning the churches in one region has not eliminated all of the controversies and questions this movement as a whole has stirred. J. P. Moreland expresses the heart of the reaction by some Evangelicals to the movement:
Faced with such opposition and the pressure it brings, postmodernism is a form of intellectual pacifism that, at the end of the day, recommends backgammon while the barbarians are at the gate. It is the easy, cowardly way out that removes the pressure to engage alternative conceptual schemes, to be different, to risk ridicule, to take a stand outside the gate. But it is precisely as disciples of Christ, even more, as officers in his army, that the pacifist way out is simply not an option. However comforting it may be, postmodernism is the cure that kills the patient, the military strategy that concedes defeat before the first shot is fired, the ideology that undermines its own claim to allegiance. And it is an immoral, coward’s way out that is not worthy of a movement born out of the martyrs’ blood. — J. P Moreland[40].
Wanted to say too that we are praying for you daily! (And to correct my typo in the first para … written. I get paid to proof???)
Love, Romy, Neil, and Luke
I would just like to suggest if you find the “Emergent Movement” interesting and appealing, do your research. Visit the Emergent Village website and read some of the blogs. Visit Fuller Seminaries Eddie Bolger’s blog. and read some of the “Conversations”. Please do not fail to read at least excerpts of Brian McLaren’s Generous Orthodoxy. Francis Shaffaefer had some very good insights as to why and what (postmodernism) could affect society and the church. Also of importance visit the Leadership Networks website and find out who really started this movement and why and how they did it.
Recent news: Rob Bell and Doug Pagitt (promenient leaders in emergent movement) participated in Seeds of Compassion Conference at Washington State University. Please find out what this conference was about and who the sponsers were.
I pray God gives you His wisdom.
Christina, thank you so much for the prayer! sorry it took me so long
Karen is waiting for approval for a petscan and it is coming in the next 2-3 weeks it will tell whether her cancer has grown, shrunk, or stayed the same…..obviously we are praying for the last two
Romy, thanks for the info, and the prayers:)…….I want to be clear that I am completely ortodox and I am against heresy, and I do believe that thre are men in the Emergent movement that are seeking to rewrite orthodoxy……….I guess what kind of frustrates me is two-fold
1. my entire life in Calvary Chapel i have been told (rightly so) that if I teach the word people will be healthy and it seems like now it’s lets teach the word, and make sure to tell everyone what/and who we are against? (the reactionary aspect bothers me)
2.there is in my humble opinion alot of broadbrushing done by us Calvary Chapel types……..what I mean is anyone who is a little different we call emergent….if we kept emergents to the ones seeking to rewrite orthodoxy fine….but sadly thats not what we do once again imho…………………
Wendy, thank you for reading, and thanks for the comment
Jeff,
I think an example would help here…….. we homeschool our 4 kids because we felt the Lord leading us to. We are pro-homeschooling but we don’t think it is for everyone. If both husband and wife aren’t on board I would say don’t do it. My point…. there are some people that think if you don’t homeschool you are wrong or even sinning. Sometimes in some Calvary’s they come out so strongly about what they are against. ie. some of the things on Ryan’s list. If you are FOR something doesn’t mean you are automatically against the other.
Does that make sense?
jmgcmg…. is me jeff.:)
oh Hi Jeff…and I agree completely…….my wife and i decided against homeschooling but we are not against it by any means…..i am against those in the body who treat me as if I am a monster for sending my kids to a public elementary school. (they now attend Christian jr high)
oh Hey Jeff did you notice Ryan stole his infamous title from me?
I didn’t notice that, but it sounds like grounds to break off the friendship with Ryan.:)
By the way… my wife is MUCH smarter than me or we wouldn’t be homeschooling.:)
Also, I bet Ryan gets all his sermons off of sermons.com.:)
Just kidding my brother. I actually have some friends that go to a Vineyard, and they found out their Pastor has been reading his sermons word for word from sermons.com. Crazy.
Ryan and I know of a CC pastor who printed off another CCpastors notes and taught them word for word…….and the funny thing is the guy he copied from is a known plagurizer (sp?) of Jon Courson.hahahahaha….true story
ok here’s the deal…Jeff and I have talked at great length about this concept of “what are we afraid of?” but I totally forgot that he posted this article with the same title.
jeff…when i make money off this I will send you 10%. So far you you owe me money.
10% of the fallout huh? yeah well I would expect nothing less
hey jeff. totally understand the broad brush comment. obviously you know i’ve been around long enough to know the ins and outs of cc’s and the downfalls. just glad, though, that we have been given a heritage in the Word of God and that God looks on us, even with all our eccentricities, mistakes, and oftentimes lack of grace, with His Grace!
Romy, Amen to that:)…I am super glad for that heritage in the Word as well, I am also glad for the Ministry Philosophy that has been passed down to me!